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About The Oregon daily journal. (Portland, Or.) 1902-1972 | View Entire Issue (Dec. 14, 1908)
THE OREGON DAILY JOURNAL, PORTLAND. MONDAY EVENING, DECEMBER 14. 1908. JO CUE TO Conservation , Commission Hears Plain Talk From J. H; Lcwis-Wcbster At tacks Basic Principles of Proposed Legislations Tne Oregon conservation commission met this morning In the hall. of the Commercial club for the purpose of dis cussing1 .proposed legislation for the regulation of water rights in this state. But Judge lb R. Webster, who had been Invited to be present and present, his views on the subject, threw a bombshell Into the midst of the deliberations by vigorously attacking . the fundamental principle upon which it is proposed to base .such legislation,, and ' declaring that' no laws can legally be enacted or enforced which are based upon the proposition that the state owns or can own or control the water in the streams within its borders. Th forenoon session therefore re- . solved Itself Into a-discussion of the subject by Judge Webster from his standpoint, interrupted at Intervals by questions from various members of the commission. Will R. Klnr. aimreme rnurt rommln stoner, presided at the meeting, and Judge Webster presented a few bouquets to the highest judicial body of the state, severely criticising some of the opin ions which have been handed -down. He also paid his compliments to President Roosevelt for pretending to know any thing about water rights, saying the president probably knows as much about that subject as he does about a great many otner tilings upon which be claims to be an authority. Ho Title to Water. The members of the commission take the stand that Oregon is greatly In need of legislation which will defi nitely define-water rights and regulate their use. At present, according t J. H. Lewis, there is no such thing as a title to water In Oregon, and the thing which must be done Is to pass laws which will give titles to water rights which are as well defined as titles to land. The recommendations of the Oregon conservation commission in its report of November, this year, to the governor, were made the basis of discussion. The report says: ''Based upon the experience of other states and countries In the enactment of effective water laws, we believe that the conservation and use of Oregon's water resources will lag until such time as a law Is enacted covering the fol lowing fundamental principles: "1 Complete state control of diver sions from streams- No water right inj the future should become vested except by appropriation under the laws, rules and regulations prescribed by the state, and the diversion of water without right from a publlo stream, lnoluding all J knowingly wrongful Interference with the rights of others, to the Injury of another, .should be made a misdemeanor. "I 'A. system whereby the nrlorltv snd limitations of overy existing right 10 me use or water can eventually oe Seoord of All Bights. "3 Provision for a reliable record In some central office of all rights t the use of water determined and of .hew rights as Initiated. '4-That actual measurements ' of aitcnes and streams be made as a basis for the adjudication of existing rights and for the initiation of new rights. "6 To provide a, . definite - procedure wnereoy ngnis to tne use 01 water can be acaulred. '. - . ---i., . . . t That beneficial use be made the basis, : the measure and the limit of all rights to the use of water,' and that water, for irrigation purposes should be made appurtenant to the land Irri gated. . . i "1 All rights to'the use of water for power development should be ., limited io some specinea time, subject to re newal under certain restrictions. "8 An efficient administrative sys tem, wun proper onicers ror ' tne Dis tribution of the water supply among those entitled to its use., i "9 An adequate system of fees, pay able to the state by those benefited, so that eventually the system shall become seu-Bupporting. " . ; , : , Terr XanrasSntatlva Bod v. Chairman Will R. King called the meeting to order. There were. not a great many present, but they repre sented a large number. The prelimi nary statement waa made that the mat ter of developing a code was one that needed a great deal of investigation ana unairman King called upon tne meeting ror a. general discussion. J. H. Lewis was the first to take the floor. He said that what the commis sion wanted to do was to create a sys tem of titles to water as definite as titles to- land. - He made the suggestion that the fundamental prlnclDlea laid down in the report to the governor should be made the basts of discussion, to be taken up section by section.- This was agreed to,, and the first principle, complete state control of diversions from streams, was taken up for discus sion. Mr. Lewis thought the law should bo that- If any man made a diversion of water from any stream without com plying with the state regulations gov erning such diversions,' the water right should become invalid. At present, he said, It Is a question of doubt as to whether such is the case or not. It Is not a orime to steal water in Oregon. Claims Without Basis. . EL R. Lake made the statement that the common report that the water rights of Oregon are all ready all appropriated Is erroneous. The claims of men who have Dut up notices along the streams amount to nothing. But these reports tend to make eastern people afraid to Invest their money In Oregon. The fact of the matter is, said Mr. Lake, that only a general utility company can ap propriate water by notice. "At the present time,'' said J. R. Lewis, "it is not a crime to divert water from publlo streams. But ther Is only so much water. If this Is put to ubilc use. It should be made a mls emeanor to divert It from above. Be fore any one could divert water, he should first be obliged to obtain per mission from the state. And, at the season of low water, if any one below complained concerning the diversion above, the lower users should be pre vented from using more than would leave plenty for those below." might of Appeal. Mr. Hanley of Harney county thou eh t there should be some appeal in case of such complaints. The water master might act as the first court, the de fendant being given the right to appesj from his decision. RtAtn Rninepr .Tnrtnntnn nf Wvftmlnff a state which has a system of water laws such as it Is proposed to enact in Oregon, was present at the meetlntr. and was called upon. Mr. jonnston saia: My coming here s not from selfish motives, for Wyom ing has for several years been Drofltinsr by the lack of definite water laws in otner stnies. witnin tne past yeari there have been from IS to 20 men come Into my office. Investors who came to me and said that because Oregon had no definite water laws, they had decided not to invest tnelr money In that state but to go elsewhere where their rights were well defined. ' "I think that In discussing this matter we should consider the broad underly ing principles rather than details which will work themselves out later, ;.- - . Wo Control of Btraama." ' f ' "The ; national government never as sumed to have control of the streams In Oregon, , There la nothing in the state constitution that stipulates that the tat has any rights In or control of the water in the stream a . ' Now, In Wyoming the water Is the property of the state. That the water should re main in the hands of the state la the fundamental theory' upon which some understanding should be reached. Then we can build up from that." "The Supreme court of the United eiaies nas neid that the state does not have control of the waters within its borders," interrupted Chairman JOng. "But the states have not accepted this ruling and defined their responsibilities by law," replied Mr. Johnston. "This question is. fundamental, and unless we reach an understanding upon i it,: any further discussion is useless." While Engineer, Johnston was talk ing. Judge Webster had come in, and Chairman King called upon him for an expression or. nis views on tne sub' ject, r- - ,- ; Webster Airs His Ylews. , . "My ideas," said the judge, rising and laying aside his overcoat preparatory,to gemng into action, "are, i Know, antag onistic to many of the notions prevalent in this water legislation. I know that I am laying myself open to the charge of appearing In the behalf of special in terests, to the charge of being a lobby ist one is a lobbyist when he opposes this legislation, I believe, but not when he favors it but notwithstanding that, I- think there are many questions to be considered before any legislation is pro posed. "First, the state doesn't own any water and never can own it. The public doesn't own any water. There's not a drop of public water In Oregon and never can be. Legislation can't create property, and it can't take property away without paying for it. "There are only two possible ques tions for legislation on this subject. In the first place, this legislation can be nothing but the laying down of meth ods of procedure to simplify the regula tion of property already In existence and already the property of somebody. weed of legislation. ,' ' "There ought to be tome legislation regulating the anDrorirlation. of water. And the term 'appropriation' should be defined. In the ordinary sense, it Is to take water out of the stream for use. But In the languaa-e of the wnter t of this country, it means the taking of waier accoraing io tne provision or the act of congress of 1866. Bv that act congress gave the right to anybody to go upon the land and take the water and put It to some useful purpose. The government as the owner of the land had the same rights as anybody else. But the government said, throueh con gress, we relinquish our riparian rights to anyone who will go upon the land and use the water, and in issuing pat ents to land, we will reserve those -lghts to the public. But there Is no doubt in mv mind that the state can regulate the taklnz up of water on public land. "With most streams, the water tht can be utilized for Irrigation flows inrougn private iana, ana this land fastens upon the stream riparian rights pertaining to that ownership. Con gress gave this right as a land owner, not as a law maker. Any pri vate ownershlD in a stream In unrroil against any one taking water from It so Tar as tne riparian rights are concerned. . Ho Crying Heed. I don't think there Is anv ervlnr need of water legislation In this state, notwithstanding all that has been said about it. But there probably Is some need of legislation. 'Now. what .are riparian riehts? Whatever Is their extent, they are a property right. The law respecting ri parian rights will control them. The property rights existing today are con trolled by the laws of today. The state Is no sacred thing. It can't acquire Jiroperty by a declaration of the legis-ature. The right to make a reasonable use of , the water on the land is right of property, Th right to -use the water belongs to the owner of the land. It la appurtenant to the ownership of the' land itself." The judge then read a su- Freme court decision to tne aoove er ect ' - W ' : . ' .-"". !'- !- - "There Is a reat deal of light talk about riparian rights, and a good deal of fioon-pooning or their existence, but it s a part of the law of Oregon that a man owning land along a stream, is en titled to have what flows through that land, and you can't get the right away from him. . , : . .. Blffhta Of the BUte. "Then, where does the state come in? Where is It , going to get the water T How are you going to take it away by legislation? . You might as well say that the state can como and'take away tny wagon by legislation. Oh, yes, we need this water to make homes happy homes. According to what some say, the homes we are going to build with this water are all To be nappy homes, with roses blooming all around them no death, no taxes, no trouble. They are all to be happy. But bow,,are we to " this water? We talk about the old and the new riparian rights. I am not exactly sure just what is the old and what the new. But it seems to be that the old riparian right gave a man the right to use what water he needed for watering his stock, etc., but he could not use It for irriga tion. The new law does give this right. But It must be exercised by each In rec ognition of the rights of others, acre for acre, we might say. That is, if there ' " along a stream, each 0"V?!nC 100 a3,'4 of ,antJ- ach of us Is entitled to one third the water in that stream, . "In the nature of things no, appor tionment of riparian rights can he mart And the reason. The supreme court has held wrongly In my judgment, for the fact that the supreme court says a thing does not make It right; sometimes they are right, but generally they're wrong they have held that If It hold a tract of 100 acres of lanH nr and two other men each own a tract of 100 acres, and I buy 800 off the stream, but adjoining my original 100 acres, that uBcuraei riparian also. it InU,bJB "" "ling if I bought 40,000 and I would have a rlh tn ?h use of the water Dronnrtlnnuta in amount of riparian land I owned. For inn reason you cant apportion the rights along the streams. Volume of Water Varies. "Another reason Is that the amount of water In the streams varies. Some times there Is not hslf as much as at others. It is very attractive to say that the title to water should h m,i,i as exact as the title to land. This would be very easy if the streams never rose or fell. It's a beautiful theory but It's hobbled and can't walk." Home member asked whv. if nlhcr states have laws such as are proposed for this state. Oreirnn ahnnli nut h. able to have them, too. "I don't know anything about the other states," replied Judge Webster. "It may be that their streams are dif ferent from ours. Anyway, I'm not in favor of emulating all the vices and fol lies of our neighbors. , "Is there nothing to be said in favor of the riparian owner? I am not In the employ of any special interests, I want it understood. "Let us suppose I have a specific In stance in mind that a man comes here in the early days, when there is an empire from which to select his land. He , goes upon a stream of water and locates his farm there and builds his home let us say because of the water, because the view is beautiful, because he has a love of nature In his soul. (I am not ro sure that a family raised among beautiful surroundings is not the better for it). "Now, he can't use the water for Irri gation because his land Is too high, and he doesn't need it, anyway. He waters a few head of stock and on moonlight nights he sits on the veranda and watches the water rippling past. "The time comes when people who want to make happy homes dam the river above him and take away the water, leaving him nothing but the foul bed of an abandoned stream. "I say he has the right to stop this. I think something is to he tftild In favor of my old friend, who yfca'rs ago built his home a beautiful stream. Of course. AD r.iAY RE6AIN TRADE Through Service Over 0. E. & to Lewiston Not Un likely to Be Kesumed. J. P. O'Brien, general manager of the Oregon Railroad Navigation company, has returned from a trip of inspection over the new joint line of the Q, R. & N. and the Northern Pacific .between Riparla and Grangevllle,- and as a result of conferences that are to be held in the next few weeks over the operation of the new line by the two roads it is Sosslble that through service over - the . R, & N. to Lewiston and Grangevllle may be restored. The Rlparla-Orangeville line, under a stipulation entered into by the North ern Pacific and the O. R. & N was to be a Joint road. The O. R. &. N. con structed that part from Riparla to Lew- ision ana tne Normern racmc tnat part from Lewiston to Grangevllle. Each road is now temporarily operating that part which it constructed. The mint line tans a very rtcn territory, lowever. and some arrangement will have to be .made In the immediate future for the operation by the two lines. it was to thoroughly acquaint nimseit with conditions on the Lewiston-Qrange-vllle line In anticipation of these con ferences that Mr. O'Brien went to Lew iston last week. He Is not ready yet to make any announcement of his views of how the joint line should be operated and as to whether the O. R. & N. and the Northern Pacific should have Joint trains or each run trains ss far as Grangevllle. One thing is certain, however what-, ever traffic the O. R. & N. had between Lewiston and Portland has been lost since the change in time between the two cities and the dropping of the through train to Lewiston. The suspic ion that the rival roads had entered Into an agreement to give all the Lewiston traffic to Spokane Instead of dividing it with Portland has been strong In the breasts of a good many Portland whole salers for some weeks. The change In time so dlKtlniyly In Spokane's favor has already resumed in the transferring of considerable busi ness from Portland to Spokane whole sale houses. Dimf T Work on Electric Koad From Dayton, Wash., to Columbia River Will Be gin Within Few Days, . Says Dr. Blalock. the beautiful must give way to the utilitarian but, don't forget that we took his property from him. Is This the Kerned? "This leads to the most vital ques tion In the water rights of Oregon to day what are riparian water rights? What rights lias my old friend. That is what we want to accomplish to find out what these rights are. How is this to be done? "I think something can be done by a statute of limitations. We might pass a statute giving a man three years in which to make UBe of his rights, and say to him, 'You can have what water you are using at the end of the three yea re... (All the .rest may be diverted to thepubllc I think any legislation proposed should be based upon the right of the. riparian owner to only what water he can use.'1 The secretary asked Judge WebsteT about the right of the state to rent out the water and collect rent upon it. asking If President Roosevelt had not recommended this. "Certainly the state cannot do any thing of the kind," replied the Judge. "I don't think the president knows any more about the water question than he does about a great manv other things he talks about except that he knowg ail about everything and can do no wrong. I don't think his opinions are worth considering." The meeting adjourned at 12 o'clock until 1:10 p. m. Construction work on the Walla Walla 6c Columbia Traction company's proposed line from Dayton. Wash., to the Columbia river will begin Inside of 10 days, according to N. G. Blalock, president of the traction company, who is In Portland today, settling up mat ters of business cqnnected with the be ginning or worK on me line. When the new roed is completed It will give the farmers of the Walla Walla valley a road of their own for the transportation of wheat and other crops of southeastern Washington to the Columbia river, where they will be transferred to the Open River Naviga tion company's steamers for Portland. "Nothing In the way of railroad con struction in eastern Washington and Oregon, that has been done for the past 10 years will compare in importance with the construction of the new elec tric line frdm Dayton to the river." said Dr. Blalock, "It is especially Im portant to Portland because it will In sure the carrying of the wheat and products of the tremendously rich Walla -WAHa valley to Portland. "Our cpject is to have the farmers own their own line so that they can fix their" own rates in conjunction with the Open River Navigation company's steamers. The line Is to be a standard gauge ' electric T miles tong and will connect -Dayton, Walla Walla, W'hit busg and other points In the .-Wall Walla valley with the Columbia river, both at Wallular and Pasco. At t !" two points our freight can be trans ferred to the river steamers for trans portation to tidewater." - - According to Dr. Blalock the Bwr road should 'be in operation so as to catch next fall's crop. There are about 5000 farmer in the vicinity' of Wall Walla who have about $3,000,009 lying Idle In Walla Walla banks and who are interested in this road. The Una Itself will cost Sbout IISOD.OOO to build. But there are 8.00O.000 bushels of wheat waiting to be carried to the Columbia river each year, to say nothing of the big passenger and way freight business that we can look forward to. "It is a line that Is as Important to Portland's prosperity as it . la to ours," concluded Ir. Blslock. Tr. Blalock is one of the pioneer railroad builders of eastern Washing ton and was a prime mover In con structing the Hunt road into jWalla Walla. ADD ONE ilORE JUROR 10 LIS! Only one Juror was added to the list in the Anionlo Petrasso murder trial at the morning session In Judge Morrow' department of the circuit court this morning. The case was taken up a soon as the Douglass embezzlement case was finished at the point where it was left by Judge Gantenbeln last Saturday, nine Jurors having been se cured on that dav. 'i: and one excuse for cause, E. A. Jenkins was accepted as the tenth just after noon., The others sworn to try tho case are M. Kronenberg, R. F. Crawford. A. J. Fanne, E. B. Gardner, C. H. Clem ent. J i. narr II. EL Clemens. J. W. Caldwell and E. O. Daniel. .- Petrasso killed Vencense Pesantis on the night of June 12 at a wedding cele bration in the Italian quarter. His at torneys will attempt to show that the act was committed in self defense when penantls was about to carve him with ney reeland and John Ditchburn are conducting the prosecution, the defend ant being represented by Seneca Fouts and E. I Minor. Recent examinations of concrete sub jected to the action of locomotive gases for 13 years showed that it had not been affected by them. No Man is Stronger Than His Stomach A strong man is strong all over. No man cao be strong who is suffering from weak stomach with its consequent indigestion, or from some other disease of the stomach and its associated organs, which im pairs digestion and nutrition. For when the stomach is weak or diseased there is a loss of the nutritioa contained in food, which is the source of all physical strength. When a man "doesn't feel just right," when he doesn't sleip well, has an uncomfortable feeling in the stomach after eating, is languid, nervous, irritable and despond cat, he is losing the nutrition needed to make strength. Sac m mma mhoutd Dr. Plerv'a Coldea Madlcai DUeorery. It ear dUamaem of tarn atomaea aad otbtr mriana of dljteatloa aad aatrltloa. it aaricata taa blood, lawliorataa taa liver, atraaitkana taa kldaaya, aoarlakaa tka aenaa. aad ao GIVES HEALTH AND STRENGTH TO THE WHOLE BODY You can't afford to accept itcrtt nostrum ai a substitute for this son elcohotio medicine or known coMrotmoN, not even though the argent dealer may thereby make a little bifier profit. Ingredients printed on wrapper. r "h ;J Begins Tomorrow, 9 o'clock Sharp LITTIXKOST WILL START ITS Begins Tomorrow, 9 o'Clock Sharp FIRS TGREA CLE ARANC H SALE All Cloaks, Suits, Furs, Skirts, Waists, Petticoats Less Than Half! Every record broken. Every price precedent knocked flat. Instead of waiting till after Christmas to cut prices, we are cutting them now way, way down to rock bottom to give you the full bene fit in your Christmas shopping. For yourself or for sensible gifts, these garments can't be excelled. Should you wait the season through, should you travel from New York to San Francisco, you would not find a match for the bargains we are now offering. Our elegance is in our goods, not in our store, fixtures or furnishings; your money pays for quality in your purchase you won't iimiu utc inning iuiuuvciuciiic vi siricui quarters wnen you sec uic garments ana near xne prices. 1 Handsome Long Coats The Littlekost will divide its entire stock of Coats into three lots. Lot 1 Misses' and children's Coats of bearcloth, kersey, broadcloth, mannish mixtures, many lined with flannel, very stylish and durable; $15 and $20 values, clearance sale Lot 2 These include our good quality brQaddoth, also nobby mixtures and plain colors in loose and semi-fitting models, full length, all colors, medium and extra sizes; nA values up to $30, clearance sale price pirU Lot 3 Beautiful directoire and empire effects, in fine broadcloth, cheviots, stripes and wor steds, tight and semi-fitting; elegantly trimmed in silk braid or bandings and buttons, with and without liningall colors; extra and medium sizes; values to $40, clear- A Of ance sale price x t , )lgOd Great Fur Bargains Onr furs squirrel, wolf, Jap mink, etc. are among our most sensational bargains; they're worth more than twice the price; will make acceptable Christmas gift for wjfe, sister or sweetheart. ' Exquisite Muffs for f3.95 and ........ Beautiful Scarfs, f 1.95, f 2.15, and up to .2. .O":.$5.50 $15.00 $23.50 Jap Mink Sets, values to $40, for Sable Fox Sets, trimmed with (HC flA heads and tails, $45 values for 9WUU Petticoats Three Grades . ' . . Lot 1 Good for rainy day wear, well made and durable, of heatherbloom, neatly ruf- fC fled and shirred; regular $2.50 values, clearance sale price. "DC Lot 2 The very popular "Klosfits" no gathers, no fullness; guaranteed to fit any figure; in black and colors; all sizes; -regular $3.50 values, clearance fcf, TC sale price ylef 3 Lot 3 Heavy lustrous silk, strictly tailored, with 15-inch flounce and silk dust ruffle: black and colors;- extra and medium sizes; J QC values up to $15, clearance sale price,. t ..y403 BLTWEXN FOURTH AND FIFTH 2P0 NEAR FIFTH STRLLT MORRISON .e f ; 11 rC- Xlegant Street and Dress Suits For convenience to shoppers we have divided our entire line of Suits into three lots as follows: C, Lot 1 In this assortment are our splendidly tailored street Suits with long coats and snug3 fitting skirts; many trimmed with bands and buttons; in fancy mixtures and plain (7 nr colors; extra medium sizes; values up to $20, clearance sale price.. ...j$iiJU Lot 2 In this lot are many of the new striped effects, also plain broadcloths, serges, etc., in directoire styles, with braid or button and band trimming; skirts gored; 01 Q Cf extra and medium sizes; valuers, up to $35, clearance safe price dlOOU Lot 3 -These Suits are superb models in chiffon broadcloth, imported suitings, etc.; many heavily and richly braided; and made on slender and graceful lines; long coat QC effects; extra and medium sizes and colors; reg. $40 vals., clearance sale price 31F0D Tailored and Fancy Waists Lot 1 Strictly tailored, stiff collars and cuffs, made of outing cloth in plain colors, stripes and checks; very serviceable and attractive; regular $2.50 values, clearance sale flr P"ce Lot 2 Silk lined nets, trimmed with Val and Cluny lace, also dainty silk and 0 QC v linen tailored; very pretty for dressy wear; values to $12, clearance sale price. .. .$0O t- Lot 3 Fancy messalines, nets, chiffons, in all the delicate tints; exquisite creations of the best style artists; suitable for evening occasions, and just the thing for a hand- AC' some Christmas gift; regular values up to $20, clearance sale price ..d00 i Splendid Separate Skirts Our entire stock of Skirts will be divided into three lots for this great clearance sale. Lot 1 Good service Skirts for rainy day wear; well made with buttons and band 0O Q trimming; medium and extra sizes; clearance sale price ...... ... O Lot 2 Strictly tailored serges. Panamas, voiles and mixtures, gored effects; extra and me dium sizes; excellent values at the regular price; values up to $15, clearance QC sale price ..,,,0.00 Lot 3 Very handsome Altman voiles with silk accordion drop; others side sheath effect, silk lined; also heavy broadcloths and fancy satins; all cut on the newest models; extremely high-class in every respect; . you'll like them immensely; regular values to $35, clearance CI A Of" sale price. 12. OD CLOAK AND SUIT H0US1 BETWEEN FOURTH AND FIFTH NEAR FIFTH STREET