Morning Oregonian., February 06, 1907, Page 4, Image 4

THE MORNING OREGONIAN. WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 1907.
PLEA OF INSANITY
HITS MANY SNAGS
(Cbntlnued From First Page.)
but promised to have more authorities
in court tomorrow. '
The defense next Introduced Benja
min Bowman, who testified that in Jan
uary. 1904, he had a conversation with
the defendant. Ho was about to tell
what the conversation was. when Mr.
Jerome Interrupted, declaring a conver
sation so far back was Irrelevant or
immaterial.
Justice Fitzgerald again called upon'
Thaw's attorneys for citation of au
thorities giving the testimony' of the
character proposed.
"We did not expect to reach this wit
ness today," explained Mr. Gleason,
"and I have not my authorities here."
.Justice Fitzgerald sustained Mr.
Jerome's objection, and the witness
stood aside.
Had St. Vitus' Pance in Childhood.
C. II. Bingham, of Pittsburg-who has
been a family physician of the Thaws
for 30 years, took the stand and testi
fied that he had known Harry Thaw
ever since his Infancy. He had treat
ed him once for St. Vitus- dance. He
seemed to be a lad of highly nervous
temperament and slept badly at night,
said the witness.
Mr. Jerome's cross-examination was
brief.
"How old was the defendant when he
had St. Vitus' dance?"
"Seven."
"That Is all, doctor."
May Shut Out Proof of Heredity.
Dr. J. F. Deemar. of Kittaning, Pa.,
the family physician of the Copleys.
Mrs. William Thw, the prisoner's
mother having been a Miss Copley, was
the last witness of the day. He was
called to testify as to the mental con
dition of John Ross, a cousin of Harry
Thaw, when Mr. Jerome objected. Jus
tice Fitzgerald held that, until the
defense's authorities on the' Introduc
tion of testimony as to collateral in
sanity were presented, he thought It
best to rule out all such testimony for
the time boing.. It was at this time
that adjournment until tomorrow was
ordered.
Del mas Hns His Backup.
Scarcely had court 'adjourned when
there was a conference of the different
counsel and it became known that cer
tain of the attorneys were not well
pleased with the day's developments.
Delphln M. Delmas, on leaving the
courtroom, had declared flatly that he
was dissatisfied with the day's pro
ceedings and intimated that he was
surprised that the conduct of the de
fense for the day had been entrusted
to John B. Gleason rather than him
self. Dr. Wiley should not have been
put on the stand today, Mr. Delmas
said, and perhaps should not have
been put on the stand at all.
"I expected to go on and conduct the
case today," Mr. Delmas added. "I was
surprised that Mr. Gleason should have
done it."
It had been rumored in the court
room that Thaw was pleased with Mr.
Gleason's address to the jury on Mon
day and that he directed that Mr.
Gleason should take charge of the case
today.
Thaw's attorneys were closeted at
Mr. McPlke's office well Into the even
ing, but nothing definite as to what
transpired was made public. After the
lawyers had left, Mr. McPike said:
"The lawyers for the defense had a
conference, at which plans for the de
fense were gone over. There was really
nothing done."
"Will Mr. Delmas withdraw from the
case tomorrow morning If Mr. Gleason
continues the examination?"
"As for that," replied the lawyer,
"you will have to wait until court
opens and see for yourself what goes
on. I can say nothing about it at the
present time."
Conference tvtth Thaw.
Mr. McPike was then asked if he
was satisfied with the manner in which
the case had been conducted so far.
He replied:
"Really I don't care to say anything.
Anything that was done will be made
known tomorrow morning, and you will
have to wait until then."
After the trial had been adjourned
Mr. McPike visited Thaw in the Tombs.
He talked with the prisoner for about
15 minutes and. when he left, he re
fused to make any statement.
Later a note was sent to the prisoner,
asking him if the report that his law
yers had disagreed was true, and his
reply was:
"No; there is no truth in the report.
It is all nonsense." 1
Thaw did not appear woYn from his
tedious day In cour.t. Asked what he
thought of today in court. Thaw replied
the day had been "apparently satis
factory." Lawyers' Ultimatum to Gleason.
;it was said late tonight that at the
conference of the defendant's counsel they
informed Mr. Gleason that, unless he de
sisted from conducting Thaw's case in
dividually and Irrespective of their
wishes, they should withdraw from the
courtroom at the opening of the session
tomorrow morning and sever all connec
tion with the case.
Mr. Gleason, according to the author
Of the report, declared he had not usurped
the position of senior counsel, but had
taken the initiative in the proceedings
at the request of Thaw himself, under
whose guidance he understood all tha
counsel were acting. When Mr. Gleason
heard the ultimatum of his fellow coun
selors repeated, he declared again, it was
stated, that the' wishes of their client
were paramount with him, and he sup
posed with the others. Under thesecon
ditions the t-ounsel broke up. When
seen later at the Yale Club, where with
Mr. Delmas he had gone for dinner, Mr.
McPike said:
"We have no more Information as to
what will follow the opening of court
in the morning that Mr. Gleason has.
We have arrived at no decision at the
conference. We do not know what Mr.
Gleason Intends to do. What we shall
do depends entirely on what occurs after
court opens tomorrow.
Another rumor regarding the confer
ence is that It referred to a demand bv
Thaw that Gleason be deposed. Written
airtnority was-given to Clifford W. Hart
rldge to act as chief counsel with Mr.
Delmas In charge of all examinations it
was stated. Mr. Gleason, it was said
would henceforth merely act in a con
sulting capacity.
WILEY ODER JEROME'S FIRE
Thaw's v Family rhyslclan Finds
, Some Things He Did 'otXnow.
Dr. C. C. Wiley, of Pittsburg, Thaw's
family physician, who Is connected with
the Dixmont Insane Asylum, was called
as the first witness-for the defense in the
Thaw trial. Dr. Wiley, in answer to
questions by Gleason, said he bad de
voted much of his life to the study of
insanity.
Dr. Wiley was asked to state his recol
lection of an incident In 1905 in which
Harry Thaw was concerned.
"In the Summer of 1905." said the wit
ness, "I was a passenger on a streetcar
In Pittsburg when Harry Thaw came In.
Without any apparent reason Thaw
rushed 'for one of the blinds of the
window, drew up the blind, slammed it
down again, and then drew it up once
more. He had a quarrel with the con
ductor." "What was Thaw's manner?"
"It was dominant, vague and his eyes
flashed from right to left."
"A3 an expert and from your personal
observation, can you say 'whether his ac
tions were rational or irrational."
"Irrational."
"And a man may know the nature and
quality of his act, know that it is wrong,
against the law, and yet be swept away
by emotional Impulse?"
"Yes, by an Impulse over which he has
no control."
The witness was asked to repeat the
substance of the hypothetical question
asked by the defense. In doing so he in
advertently admitted that he had taken
Into consideration his knowledge of a. case
outside . of the question. Jeromr then
moved that the question snrf answer be
stricken from the testimony.
Row About Hypothetical Question.
The hypothetical question In full follows:
"Assuming, sir, .that the man you saw
in the streetcar last Summer was proved
to you, as an expert, to have attended a
roof garden, the day of June 25, the oc
casion of the opening of a theatrical en
tertainment which was largely attended,
and that on coming out of the theater
with his wife near him and apparently
in a quiet and orderly manner, that man
should turn aside and fire three shots
from a revolver Into a man who" was sit
ting at the table and to whom he did not
speak, that this man then held the pistol
above his head and walked toward the
elevator, and that he Immediately said to
his wife: 'I have probably saved your
life' 1 ask, you, sir. upon your judgment
as an expert, whether you are able to
give an opinion touching upon the san
ity of the man who made that answer."
Counsel for the defense objected, but
Justice Fitzgerald said he thought It
best to strike the matter out and go all
over it again so as to make the record
clear.
Mr. Gleason reformed the question, this
time basing it upon the law of Insanity
as laid down by the statutes of the state
of New York.
Dr. Wiley again declared that he was
competent to answer the question.
x Put Through Medical Paces. '
"What is your opinion of the killing
based upon, the form of insanity as laid
down by the law of this state?" asked
Mr. Gleason.
"It was the act of an Insane man."
Mr. Jerome led the witness tnrough
a local series of questions dealing with
all manner of subjects, and asking Jilm
his opinion, and expert opinion, on most
of them.
"Are you a mythologist?" asked Mr.
Jerome.
"No."
"Have you studied the subject?"
"Not extensively."
"As a matter of fact, do you know
what mythology Is?"
"Yes."
"Is mythology an act, "or a direct
act?".
Dr. Wiley would not venture a de
cision. X
"You say a delusion Is the result of
a pathological condition?"
"Yes." . i
"Th,en the defendant's delusions must
have come from a pathological condi
tion?" "Yes. coupled with a functional con
dition.". "Is it possible for a function to be
abnormal unless there is a disease?"
"Yes. a dilated artery, for instance."
"But a dilated artery has nothing to
do with- tho case of Harry Thaw, has
it?"
"No." -Mr.
Jerome wanted to know if Dr.
Wiley believed in Christian Science.
The doctor did not answer directly, but
was pinned closely to the question by
Mr. Jerome. He Anally replied that he
did not.
Has Clash With Jerome.
This line of questioning soon led to
a wordy clash between the attorney
and witness, In which Mr. Jerome in
terrupted the witness with a loud ex
clamation:
"Did I ask you that? Did I? Answer
me!
"No."
"Upon what in the hypothetical
question did you base your conclusion
as to insanity?"
"By the fact that the man, sitting
with a party, suddenly arose and with
out provocation "
"Is there anything in . the question
about provocation?" Jerome interposed.
"No," Dr. Wiley replied with a show
of feeling. "It was the manner of the
man and the fact that he raised his
hand in a peculiar way "
"Stop!" shouted Jerome angrily. "Is
there anything In the question about
peculiar?"
The witness admitted there was not.
"The remark to his wife, I have
probably saved your life,' was another
reason for the conclusion," . said Dt.
Wiley.
"Did It occur to you that after firing
three bullets Into the body of his vic
tim the man held his revolver aloft to
indicate that his deed was done, that
there was to be no further killing, and
that he wanted to avert a panic?"
"That entered Into the calculation."
"Did motive have no bearing?"
"Yes, I read in the papers and I de
cided" "Stop! .Did the question of motive
make so light an impression on your
mind that when you come -nere to tes
tify as a scientific man you want to im
port into the case what you read in
the newspapers?"
The witness was silent.
"Isn't jealous rage the dominant ele
ment in the mind of every man who
kills from jealousy?" asked Jerome.'
"There may be other elements."
"Stop that volunteering; answer my
question. Tell us some more of your
conclusion from the hypothetical ques
tion," he requested.
Catches Doctor Tripping.
"The time, the manner and the place
chosen "
"So," shouted Jerome, "you think the
place was chosen for the crime, do you?"
"No; my argument is that It. was not
chosen "
"I don't want your argument. Keep It
out of this. What is your opinion was
the place chosen?"
"No."
"Now, as to the manner do you think
that because this man's malice and
hatred of the man he -saw on the roof
gardetv walked over .to him and fired
three bullets into his body, with the re
volver so close that the face was powder
burned: do you think that was an act of
insanity?"
"Yes."
'Then, the killing of any person in a
jealous rage is per se an act of insanity?"
"Yes."
Mr. Jerome took. the witness over every
incident of the night of the tragedy and
asked him if In each case he thought
Thaw's acts were those of an insane man.
The witness finally replied: -
"Taken alone, they do not impress me
so: but taken together, they do." '
The witness was asked tf his opinion as
to the insanity of the prisoner was based
upon the occurrences upon the roof gar
den. Dr. Wiley answering that it was.
"And, after reading the newspapers?"
suggested the District Attorney.
"Yes."
- How He Tests Brain Disease.'
Mr. Jerome then carried the witness
through the various tests of alienists to
.discern brain trouble, and asked;
"How many, people have you exam
ined as an expert to their insanity.
"Oh. about 800; I don't' know."
"Did you use the Romberg test on any
of them?"
"I don't exactly know what the Rom
berg test Is. I cannot , say."
Mr. Jerome displayed the thoroughness ,
with which he has studied medical au
thorities to fit himself for the Thaw case
by leading the witness through a chain of
questions dealing with pathology which at
times seemed to thoroughly baffle the
witness, who hesitated time and again
and evaded direct answers.
Dr. Wiley resumed the stand as soon
as the afternoon session was convened.
"Who have you talked to during the
recess?" was the first question Mr.
Jerome hurled at the witness.
"With Mr. Gleason and several others,"
replied the witness.
A physician whom he did not know had
told him that the Romberg test was a
test for locomotor ataxia.
Mr. Jerome further continued the tac
tics of the morning session, putting the
witness through a rigid test as to his
professional knowledge.
Posed With Technical Questions.
"Doctor," Mr. Jerome proceeded, "does
the cardiac nerve connect directly with
the cerebellum?"
The wltntiss hesitated.
"Well," resumed Jerome, "maybe you
can tell us If the pneumogastric nerve
joins the spinal column in the lumbar
circle or in the dorsal region?"
"In the dorsat region."
"Where Is the dorsal region?"
"I have not read up on that."
"Oh, well, never mind that. Tell me If
it is not a fact that the pneumtgastrlc
and cardiac are one and the same thing?"
"They may be."
"Don't you, as a specialist In nerve dis
eases and an expert, know which is
which?"
The witness remained silent. Mr.
Jerome rained question after question
upon him and no answer was vouchsafed.
"Did you ever hear of carsigitis? What
books on nervous diseases have you ever
read?"
The witness'' mentioned two authorities.
" "Do you recollect a single thing that
any one of these authorities said?"
"Not In their language."
"Dr. Wiley, can you recall anything you.
ever read In any book? Please state it to
the jury."
"I have read translation of Oppenhejm
er's works."
"How many volumes?"
"One."
"What did the book look like?"
"I don't recall."
"What was the precise title?"
"I don't know."
"Getting back to the ' pneumogastric
nerve or cardiac nerve, 'is It not a fact
that they do not connect with the spinal
column at all, but enter the skull cavity?"
The witness hesitated. '
"I will withdraw the question, your
honor,", he said, turning to Justice Fitz
gerald. "Are you a homeopathist?" asked the
District Attorney.
"No."
"Well, what are you?"
'I am a nervous practitioner."
After bringing In every possible change
in the pneumogastric nerve, Mr. Jerome
passed on to the tests of Insanity by the
light and the eyes.
"Do you know of the Argyle-Robertson
test of light? Wrhere did you ever hear
of it?"
"I don't recall."
"Did you ever hear of such a thing
before I asked the question?"
The witness hesitated.
"Where," said Jerome. "In any book
in God's wide world did you ever read
anything about the Argyle-Robertson test
of light?"
. Dr. Wiley did not reply.
"Did you ever examine this defend
ant as to his sanity?"
"No."
"Have you seen him often?"
"Yes. in Pittsburg."
"Can you determine whether or not a
man Is' insane by looking at him?"
"NO. I must have some conversation
with him." - '
"Did you ever converse with Thaw?"
"No."
"Do you think U right for you to come
here and give it as your opinion that a
man is insane when you have not sub
mitted him to any examination?"
"I have given my opinion of a hypo
thetical question, not upon an examina
tion." "Are you willing to stake your repu
tation on that opinion?"
"I came here as a material witness of
fact and I have been converted, into an
expert witness without any preparation."
"So you did not come here as an ex
pert witness, but believe you have been
converted Into one?"
"Yes." '
Do you think the conversion will last?"
"I am inclined to believe it will."
"What do Insane people usually do after
killing a person?"
"There usually follow evidences of
satisfaction and relief and a declaration
of the fact. Thaw's declaration to his
wife that he had probably saved her life
was a very suspicious circumstance."
"Do you know that her life was not
In danger?"
"No. I assume it-was not."
Mr. Jerome then concluded his cross
examination of Dr. Wiley.
LEAVE FOR HERMANN TRIAL
Oregon Witnesses Leave .En Masse
for Washington, D. C.
When Representative Blnger Hermann
answer to the charge of destroying andn
mutilating public records, he will per
haps be surprised to see so many fa
miliar Oregon, faces In the courtroom.
There have been many delays In bringr
ing Hermann to trial for the alleged de
struction of the letter files in his office,
while he was Commissioner of the Land
Office at Washington. He was indicted
and his trial has- been postponed several
times; , first, because Hermann was not
ready and on account of his Illness "and
several times by the Gornment. The
last postponement was due to -the fact
that the United States Attorney for the
district was inured In a train wreck. The
authorities at Washington sent between
20 and 25 subpenas to the Federal au
thorities here to serve on Oregon wit
nesses wanted at the trial by the Govern
ment. These subpenas were served last
week and the other night practically one
whole Pullman car was joaded with the
witnesses. Those who will testify in the
Hermann case are A. H. Tanner. Richard
Haughton, Clark E. Loomis, B. T. May,
W. G. Steele. George C. Brownell. Joseph
Coughs of
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flammation, check the progress
of the disease. Our advice is
give the children Ayer's
Cherry Sectoral. Ask your
doctor if this is his advice also.
He knows best. Do as he says.
Wo publish tha fbrmnlu
f fell our preparations.
J. C. IrtrCo.,
Low a. mmi.
Oosimig . -Omit
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