Portland Observer, May 20, 1962 Page 5
Derrick Bell: An interview
by P hilip Emerson
A native o f P ittsburgh, D errick
A. Bell graduated from the U niver
sity o f P itts b u rg h Law School in
1958. A fter two years with the C ivil
Rights D ivision o f the Justice De
partm ent, M r. Bell became the Ex
ecutive D irector o f the Pittsburgh
C hapter o f the N A A C P , th ro u g h
which he met future Supreme Court
Justice T hurgood M arshall. M a r
shall induced Bell to jo in the
N A A C P 's Legal Defense Fund,
where from I960 to 1966 he litigated
cases throughout the South, special
izing in school desegregation. In
1966 he became Deputy Director for
C ivil Rights w ith the department o f
Health, Education and Welfare. He
has lectured and taught at several
universities, and in 1971 he became
the first black professor at Harvard
Law School. H is b o o k, Race,
Racism and American Law is a stan
dard text at most law schools and es
tablished D errick Bell as a leading
scholar in the field.
In 1981 Bell came to the Universi
ty o f Oregon Law School as Dean,
where he has built a reputation as an
outspoken and principled adm inis
tra to r. Derrick Bell and his w ife o f
21 years, Jewel, live in Eugene, and
have three sons: Derrick I II, Doug
lass and Carter.
Q. There is a p o pula r behef that
reform s instituted during the sixties
dismanleld the systems o f prejudice
and d is c n m m a to n s u ffe re d by
blacks and other non- while m in o ri
ties. Do you agree?
A . The c o u rt decisions and the
c iv il rig h ts acts that were passed
during the sixties, w ith the general
com m itm e n t o f the governm ent
then, all encouraged black folks to
believe that a major effort had been
mounted; that a consensus had been
gained to once and for all eliminate
the scourge o f racial prejudice from
the land. I th in k that anyone who
has not been o ff on a trip to Mars,
though , w ould have to be disen
chanted and fa ir ly discouraged
about the turn o f events. The court
cases are no longer going the way of
civil rights; new standards are being
evolved that make the p ro o f o f dis
crim ination more d iffic u lt. The far-
reaching decisions o f the past are
being reversed, distinguished and ig
nored. The m a jo r advances in the
civil rights statutes are being under
mined by a refusal to enforce them,
a failure to fund their enforcement,
and direct e fforts to overturn them
at th e ir source, w hich is the C o n
gress. The one exam ple close to
mind is the upcoming renewal o f the
voting rights act, which is basic be
cause even d is c rim in a tio n in the
right to vote has never been wiped
out. Today there arc many schemes
which pass judicial review that pose
serious barriers fo r blacks as far as
their rig h t to vote being anything
other than a sym bolic w alk to the
polls on election day.
So you d o n ’ t have to be any
student o f civil rights to look on the
situation with far more despair than
delight at the present scene and with
prospects for the immediate future.
Generally when there is an economic
downturn racial hostility is greater.
Here we have this do w n tu rn com
bined with a lagging commitment to
c iv il rights enforcem ent. Based on
historical experience, this is disturb
ing to blacks.
It seems to me that during the six
ties many o f us in the c iv il rig h ts
movement placed too much empha
than they do.
In P o rtla n d , by v irtu e o f some
fa ir ly d rastic a ctio n , blacks have
won some short battles, but it never
ends, because the p r io r ity system
never changes. A fte r the board has
made prom ises about the m iddle
school, the new crisis o f the budget
comes along that no one expected
and somehow the promises o f past
years fade away. The challenge fo r
the new superintendent w ill be to
keep this process from going on. As
an a d m in istra to r faced w ith some
sim ila r problem s, I appreciate his
position.
The reason all o f us in the early
'60s decided that busing was the way
to go was that we recognized the
p rio rity system and determined that
the best way to beat it was to put the
black kids where the white kids were
because then they w ouldn’t be able
to run the p rio rity game on us. The
problem was that even w ith in the
newly integrated school, the p rinci
pal was w h ite , the teachers were
w hite and so on down the line, re
flected in disciplinary procedures,
extracurricular activities, again and
again. By the tim e you have done
th a t, there is not much happening
that is o f educatio nal b e n e fit to
blacks. It seems to me that it would
be a marvelous thing i f the school
board w ould co m m it its e lf to
b u ild in g e ffe ctive black schools
w ithin the black community with as
much e ffe ctive management and
control vested in the black commu
nity as possible.
Q. Thomas Jefferson fir s t coined
the idea o f a meritocracy, and peo
ple s till use it. Is there a meritocracy
today?
A. In America there is a m yth o f
m eritocracy: that is the belief that
we award things in this country on
the basis o f who is best q u a lifie d .
You d o n 't have to look very far to
see that is is not how we do business.
In most blue collar jobs, fo r exam
ple, prom otion is based on seniori
ty. Seniority has a lot o f benefits as
a system, but is sure a in ’ t m e rito
c ra tic . A t the p rofessiona l level,
academic tenure is the same thing.
We hear all this talk in academic in
stitutions like ‘ ‘ We can’ t be hiring
all these blacks and women because
they’re not the best qu a lifie d ,” but
the fact is that tenure, fo r a ll its
other advantages, is a n ti-m e rito -
cratic. There’s just no doubt about
it. I f we believed as teachers in the
m e rito cra tic ideal w e'd go o u t on
the fro n t steps o f the college each
fa ll and say, ” 1 want to teach E n
glish, and I'll take on all comers and
let the best person w in .” We d o n 't
do (hat w orth a dam n, right? Once
you get in there, that's your job, and
you’ ic in there until you die. or re
tire. I f you’ ve been through college,
you have p ro b a b ly had a teacher
who was tenured and had lost his in
centive to be a good teacher.
Bu, the idea o f meritocracy as ap
plied in a criticism o f affirm ative ac
tio n program s is a fa lla c y : the
inability and unwillingness to face up
to the fact (hat blacks and other mi
n o ritie s have been subjected to
serious disadvantage and by all
th a t’ s holy are entitled to recogni
tion o f that fact and to some sort o f
reparations. There is a massive un
w illingness to recognise th a t, and
one o f the ways to avoid it is to talk
about m eritocracy in a context in
which it has never existed before ex
cept to talk about. They want blacks
to fo llo w the m e rito rc ra tic idea
when no one else has followed it.
Oregon is a very friendly place but
sis on the elim ination o f discrim ina
tio n in public accom odations. We
did it because it was so hum iliating:
it h it you in the face a ll the tim e.
There was a sense that “ Gee, i f we
could go someplace and stay where
we wanted, it would be (he m illeni
um .”
The fact is that it was not, and for
many blacks the theoretical right to
go to a resta u ra n t where you
c o u ld n ’ t pay the b ill because you
didn’t have a jo b was not very much
o f an advance at all.
Q. H o w has legal re fo rm a d
dressed that problem , which seems
more basic?
A. I think that the law is a vehicle
by which basically parties in society
agree that they are going to settle
differences. There is very little room
fo r the law to be a means by which
societal status, economic and p o liti
cal, is going to be greatly changed.
We should not be surprised in this
or any society that going to court is
not a means fo r bringing about re
distribution o f wealth.
The p u b lic a ccom odatio n laws
were intended to do one thing, and
the employment discrimination laws
were intended to address the whole
area o f the w orkplace. There cer
ta in ly have been changes under
these laws, though it w o u ld be
wrong to say enough changes. Much
o f that is in danger again as the fed
eral government p ractically closes
down the Equal E m ploym ent O p
p o rtu n ity Com m ission through its
appointments and from the failure
to provide adequate funding. I guess
(he more basic problem is that it is
d iffic u lt fo r a law that is basically
c o m p la in t-o rie n te d to do much
more than keep abreast o f the worst
problems in a society where fo r so
long there has been such a com m it
ment to not having blacks in jobs o f
any consequence.
There is resistance not only from
the em ployer, but fro m the union,
and from the rank and file. In hard
times like these, a lot o f lib e ra lity
disappears. A lot o f sympathy dis
appears. The needs o f the poor
blacks and those o f poor whites are
very s im ila r, though , p a rtic u la rly
with regard to education. The prob
lem is that the poor whites are so
busy being w h ite that they d o n ’ t
realize how they are being taken ad
vantage of.
Q. Based on y o u r experience,
what are y o u r fe e lin g s a b o u t the
Tubm an lo c a tio n co n tro ve rsy in
Portland?
A. I worked w ith enough school
desegregation cases to learn that
they're not about education at all.
T he y're about power: power over
the most im p o rta n t people in (he
w orld, your children. What we are
seeing is a reaction to the powerless-
ncss o f so much o f the black com
munity.
The basic problem is not that the
school board hates blacks and
doesn't want them to have anything,
it comes down to p rio ritie s. I f the
board d id n 't have to close any
schools, they w o u ld n 't close the
black ones. But when resources are
lim ited and that pressure is fcl, up
and down the line, it is more likley
that the black school w ill be closed.
N ot because it is a black school,
m ind you, but because it is o lder,
because it is not as well-maintained,
and so on. What is clear is that the
fact o f past ill-treatment is used as a
ju s tific a tio n fo r fu rth e r ill- tr e a t
ment. This happens partly because
blacks do not have the political and
economic clout to win more things
Washington Hot Line
by Congressman Ron Wyden
Derrick Bell addressee the
Portland School Board.
(Photo: Richard Brown)
if I go into a new restaurant, there is
always a moment o f wondering: “ Is
this place going to be all right?” es
pecially outside the urban areas. But
blacks deal with that sort o f thing all
the tim e , even in San F ra n cisco ’ s
fancy restaurants. You have to be
very firm with that. You don’ t have
to raise your voice, you just have to
show them that the pervasive cultur
al stereotype does not fit. It is easier
fo r me as a well-educated man be
cause I have tools my brethren lack.
I have less problem rid in g planes
than my brethren have riding buses.
I f I get stopped by the p o lice , as
soon as I say tw o sentences the po
liceman knows he better get himself
together because I'm n o t some
nigger o f f the avenue th a t he can
just browbeat. There is among low
er classes o f th is c o u n try , even
among policemen, great respect fo r
power and a u th o rity w hether it is
hated or not. It is also a sad fact that
our society values money ra th e r
than human worth.
M y m other in s tille d in me at a
very early age that I could be what
ever I wanted, just that I had to be
better than the next person, and so I
w orked harder a il the w ay. I ’ ve
enjoyed the w ork, it hasn’ t been a
sacrifice. I th in k I am a better per
son because I am black. I think the
struggle to understand w ho I am
and why it is that the society doesn’t
lik e me even though they d o n ’ t
know me makes me much more on
my guard and sensitive to w hat
people th in k . M uch o f my legal
w ritin g is shaped by that perspec
tive: the sensitivity I developed be
cause I am black.
People say to me, " Y o u do a ll
this co m p la in in g , but being black
doesn’ t seem to have hurt you any.”
They're right, but 1 was very lucky.
O ur society should have room and
opportunity fo r average minorities.
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