NOW OPEN!
extreme: those who are throwing stuff,
breaking stuff, violent. You may very well
use pepper spray against them.
EW: Pepper bullets?
RL: Against a person who is throwing
things, breaking things, setting things on fire
or violent? Yes. But for the second kind of
protest, in the spirit of Martin Luther King
Jr.’s nonviolent civil disobedience, the short
answer is ‘no.’ I don’t think you do. Where it
gets tricky is, if for example, there’s some-
thing else going on. Let’s say, and I’m mak-
ing stuff up, because I have no idea, but if
there’s a court order trying to remove that
person from that tree. What that means is
there’s some kind of time imperative on it
because in most cases I don’t see why there
would be a time imperative on it and frankly,
if you want to sit in a tree for 20 days, I real-
ly don’t care.
(EPD public information officer Pam
Olshanski interrupts and tells him about the
1997 June 1 incident.)
EW: It’s happened. Police approached
someone in a tree, pulled his pants open, pep-
per sprayed down his pants, while the mayor
sat in his car and watched. Symantec
Corporation wanted the trees removed to
build a parking lot. Now the trees are gone,
and so is Symantec.
RL: I don’t know enough about that spe-
cific case. But I tell you, it doesn’t sound
ew
good.
holed up in a bank vault with three hostages,
that’s not an option. Then the question is: At
what level do you keep that capacity to be
able to deal with that situation and two, when
do you use it?
EW: We had somebody come from Los
Angeles who looked at Eugene like it was
L.A. We have peaceful protests here. And we
have a SWAT team that has come out and
faced down peaceful protesters.
RL: Well, I’ve gone pretty well on record
as saying you don’t use advanced tactical
operations against peaceful protesters. You
don’t.
EW: So, pepper spray? What do you
think about using it?
RL: It depends on the circumstances.
EW: Peaceful protest.
RL: Now define peaceful protest.
EW: People gathered, they may be shout-
ing, or singing or chanting, but they don’t
have guns or weapons of any kind, maybe
marching down the street.
RL: Are they violating the law?
EW: Would you use pepper spray against
somebody who’s jaywalking?
RL: No.
EW: Would you use pepper spray against
somebody who’s sitting in a tree?
RL: That depends. The short answer to
the question is none of these are black and
white. Every situation depends. If you’re
dealing with nonviolent protesters, there are
protesters of three types. There are those that
are nonviolent and legal, not breaking any
laws. Obviously you don’t. You don’t use
any type of police action against a protester
like that, at all. Let’s use the opposite
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MARCH 18, 2004 9