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INTERVIEW
irtual equality is the state in which
I think gay people live right now,”
says attorney, community orga­
nizer and former National Gay and
Lesbian Task Force executive di­
rector Urvashi Vaid. “It’s something like the com­
puter-generated simulations of reality that are found
in virtual reality. .. On the one hand, we’re more
visible than ever, but that visibility does not mean
we are understood by straight people better than we
T
have been.... At the same moment that we have gay
characters on television, gay leaders in Congress,
by Daniel Vaillancourt
and gay people who are prominent in every field,
laws banning discrimination based on sexual orien­
that I think that we spend so much energy saying,
people to come out, I’m arguing that we should
tation have largely yet to be enacted. Only nine
“We’re just like you,” and I don’t think we are just
make it a moral imperative. I want every gay person
states and 150 cities or counties have nondiscrimi­
like them.... When we say, “We are just like you,”
to think that the only way they can be whole and
nation laws.”
it’s not a very persuasive argument to most people
moral is to be out. Now, some conservatives dis­
In Virtual Equality: The Mainstreaming o f Gay
who look at us and see us as very different. Nor is
agree with that. They think it’s kind of fascistic of
and Lesbian Liberation, a controversial and com­
it an appealing argument to me. What I would
us who are out to demand this of everybody. I don’t
pelling debut that earned its author a six-figure
rather say is, “Look. We’re different.” The hetero­
think so. I think unless we expect that of ourselves
advance from Anchor Books, Vaid chronicles the
sexual
society ought to look at our difference and
and
of
each
other,
how
can
we
expect
anything
battles we have won and lost since Stonewall,
ought to change itself. I want to change the domi­
from this society? I mean, if we’re not willing to
explains why we must strive for acceptance rather
stand up and say, “I’m proud to be gay, I am who I nant culture to make it more comfortable with our
than settle for tolerance, and— in a final chapter
difference, rather than changing us to say, “Oh,
am, I am perfectly comfortable telling everybody
titled “There Are Things to Do”—calls to action
we’rejustlike
about
it,
and
I
am
every queer in the United States.
the dominant
going to take what­
“Right now too few of us are involved in this
cu ltu re.” I
ever consequence
movement,” says Vaid, who believes every gay,
think
i t ’s
comes”—until we
lesbian or bisexual individual has a responsibility
more
of
a
con­
take
that
kind
of
to contribute something toward the achievement of
tortion to say
responsibility for
genuine equality.
that
gay
our own lives and
In a recent telephone conversation from the
people are
Victorian house she shares with her lover, come­ our own struggle
ju st
like
for freedom , 1
dian Kate Clinton, in Provincetown, Mass., Vaid
straight
d o n ’t
think
shared her thoughts about Virtual Equality and gay
people than it
anything’s going
liberation at the end of the 20th century.
is to say to
to change.
straight
In Virtual Equality you suggest we focus on
people, “You
On page 33,
pop culture and our families of origin, rather
have to ac­
than solely on politics and legal reform, to achieve
you write that in
cept that hu­
creating gay ghet­
true liberation. Why is this crucial?
man differ­
tos, we’ve huilt
This is so hard to talk about because I ’ ve written
ence in sexu­
communal clos­
a 4(X)-page book. [Laughs.] I am tempted to say,
ality exists.”
ets. How so?
“Read the book, read the book...”
That’s
not a
To the extent
Coming out in the context of our families and
stretch; that’s
that someone can
pursuing visibility—communicating who we are in
being honest.
live in a gay com­
the context of our communities and neighbor­
Sexual orien­
munity
and
still
be
hoods—is so important because that’s what’s go­
tation has a
in the closet to their
ing to win gay people genuine acceptance. Our
spectrum,
family, we’ve just
visibility has made possible everything that we’ve
and w e’re
recreated
the
gotten so far. But I’m arguing in my book that one
part of that
closet with more
of the things that’s happened is that we have gotten
spectrum....
space.... So many
too focused, as a movement, on legal and political
You know,
people still go to
strategy. Again, I don't tend to think in an either/or
we’re often
San Francisco or
framework, so I don’t say we should reject all those
accused by
New York to come
strategies. 1 think those mainstreaming strategics
Urvashi Vaid
the
right
out of the closet.
are very important. But we have to supplement
wing of wanting to normalize homosexuality. Well,
And that’s OK. 1 mean, 1 think that’s always going
those strategies with more of an emphasis on cul­
it’s true. I do want that. I think a lot of the goals of
tural transformation, and that transformation oc­ to happen. It’s going to be very hard for a young gay
the movement are very much about teaching people
man in a small town in Iowa, or for a lesbian in
curs by our full participation in the lives of our
the truth about our lives, and assimilating straight
Nebraska, to come out—unless they have some
families—our straight families, I mean; our fami­
culture to who we really are—to get used to us; to
support. So maybe they will have to go to San
lies of origin—and by our full participation in the
deal with the reality of the fact that gay people are
Francisco to define their own identity. But once
lives of our communities....
I can only take it back to my own experience. 1 they’ve done that, I would urge those people to just ordinary people.
recognize that going back home and coming out to
come from an Indian family, and that family was
Provincetown, where you live with Kate, is
not very accepting of my homosexuality when I their high school friends and their family at some
an
excellent
example of cultural integration be­
point
in
their
life
is
absolutely
essential
for
us
to
win
came out to my parents 15 years ago. But you know,
tween
the
gay
and straight communities, is it
genuine equality and cultural integration.... [Lib­
over 15 years, they have moved dramatically. These
not?
eration will [ come by every single gay person being
traditional Hindu parents are now today totally
Absolutely. I really appreciate this community.
exactly who they are in the context of their lives,
excited about my book. They’ve read it; they’ve
This is a community where people have been out
and it’s sti II somethi ng that 90 percent of our people
learned from it; they’ve been challenged by it. They
for years—longer than the organized movement....
do not do. 1 am shocked, constantly, when I learn
get it more than they ever did. And by them getting
It’s really quite amazing to live in a community
that people are not out to their family, and yet they
it. they are now going to be in a better position to
where it’s not a big deal that somebody is openly
live lives within the gay community that are com­
talk to their friends, to my extended family of
gay. [Laughs.] You have openly gay people who
pletely out. They go to gay bars, they go to gay
relatives. 1 am out to absolutely everybody.
are 75 years old, who have lived in this community
businesses,
they
have
an
open
lover
relationship,
[Laughs.) It makes such a difference in how all of
for 45 years, right next to the Portuguese fishermen
they have an extended circle of friends. To all
those people think about gay people and gay rights.
who have lived in this community for 50 years....
appearances, they’re very out. But then when they
They talk about my work in the gay rights move­
Over the years, openly gay people have made a
ment with everybody. That is a very specific ex­ talk to Mom and Dad back in Illinois, they’re not
home here. I feel you can see what’s possible in the
telling
them
the
full
truth,
or
they’re
not
inviting
ample of how culture is transformed through the
rest of the world [here]. There’s no reason why it
Mom and Dad to come into their gay life.
process of engaging [our families of originl on gay
has to be limited to Provincetown. There’s nothing
issues.
magical in the water here. [Laughs ] It’s just that
On page 206, you write, “Rather than asking
what’s different is that there’s been an established
how gay and lesbian people can integrate them­
The message, then, is, “Come out, come out,
gay community that has not shied away from par­
selves into the dominant culture, what if, in­
come out.”
ticipating in the life of the full community. We
stead, we affirm that our mission is explicitly to
Absolutely. That’s the single most important
didn’t create a gay ghetto in Provincetown, we
assimilate
the
dominant
culture
to
us?”
action every single person must take. While I don't
created an openly gay community that lived as a
What I meant, specifically, by that sentence, is
believe in outing, and I don't believe in forcing
V
M anifesto for the
M illennium
In her eagerly awaited first book , Urvashi Vaid examines our
movement’s past, present and future
I
part of Provincetown.
What do you hope to achieve with Virtual
Equality?
Very specifically, I would love to see the book
spark a greater interest on the part of people who
haven’t been previously involved in gay politics. I
wrote what I think is a lively history and a lively
analysis of the strategies that our movement is using.
It’s a very hopeful book for all the criticism con­
tained in it. 1 don’t think it’s negative. I really have
a lot of faith in the movement; I believe in it. I want
this book to inspire people to get more involved in
their local organizations, to get more personally
committed to gay and lesbian freedom. I’m really
eager for that to happen.
To many, the publication of the book marks
your return...
I never left! [Laughs.]
...W hat role would you like to have in the
movement?
I’m hoping to be organizing in the movement, to
build state organizations and to build an electoral
presence or power for the gay community. I think,
specifically in the gay world, those are the things I
want to work on. I think what I’m going to end up
doing is working on an organizing project for exist­
ing organizations. At this point, I really want to
return to doing the work of building the infrastruc­
ture of the gay movement. After writing this book,
I’m so clear that where we have to be strong is
exactly where we’re weak—and that is at the state
level.
I want to try to focus my own work in meeting
that need, and I think a lot of people are thinking
along this line. Power and money [are] moving from
the federal level to the state level, and all these
issues—whether they’re referenda or marriage—
are going to be decided at the state level. The most
important thing we can do as a community is to be
registered to vote, and organize state by state. Just
imagine how powerful it would be, for example, if
we could say, in June of 1996, that the national gay
movement registered two million new voters. Can
you imagine? That’s cool. [Laughs.] And you know
what? We could do it. We could absolutely do it....
Quite frankly, I believe the work of movement­
building and the work of motivating gay people to
become more active in our movement is the most
important work that somebody like me can do.
My last question is a little frivolous, but inter­
esting nonetheless.
What is it, Daniel?
Many view you and Kate Clinton as an un­
likely couple. 1 want to know what it’s like to live
with one of the world’s funniest lesbians.
You know, she’s really funny in daily life. She
cracks me up.... But like a lot of funny people, she
is also very shy.... What she loves to do is read and
really be quiet, have a few friends over, go to a
movie. I’m much more raucous and outgoing than
she is. We’re very compatible around our passion for
social change. I often say we’re the marriage of
comedy and tragedy. It’s funny; she really tempers
my negativity sometimes. I can get very bleak and
cosmic, and then she’ll just make me laugh at myself
and it just gets me out of it.
I think her work is so political. She’s interested in
the same things I’m interested in, but she looks at it
from a completely different perspective. She reads
absolutely everything. I mean, I never had a sub­
scription to The New Republic, she did— forever.
Her favorite book isA Brief History ofTime. Stephen
Hawking, you know? [Laughs ] I don’t know too
many comedians who read that. And then she worked
it into a joke. [Laughs.] She’s a complete character,
and I adore her. 1 am so lucky; I am truly in love.
Urvashi Vaid will be speaking at 7:30 pm Monday,
Oct 30, at The Old Church, 1422 SW llth Ave., in
Portland. Her appearance is sponsored by Powell’s
City o f Books. There is no admission charge, but
tickets are required and can be obtained at
Powell’s.