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About Just out. (Portland, OR) 1983-2013 | View Entire Issue (Sept. 1, 1986)
Rita Mae Brow n has been a controversial fig u re and a study in contrasts practically since her beginnings. F rom articles, inter views, and news releases distributed by B antam Books, one learns that Brown was illegitim ate, orphaned, then adopted by poor b u t pro u d parents. She was kicked ou t o f a university fo r “ agitating fo r greater racial in te g ra tio n ” and fo r her "pansexuality,” as she calls i t A n early m em ber o f NOW, she was kicke d o u t o f that organization fo r insisting on re cogn ition fo r its lesbian m em bership. B row n was one o f the founders o f the radical fem inist group, Redstockings. She has earned a BA in E nglish and the Classics at New York University, a Ph.D. at Institute fo r Policy S tudies in W ashington, D.C. and a cinem a to g ra p h y degree fro m S chool o f Visual Arts. She has seven novels to her c re d it and sev eral volum es o f poetry, a collection o f political essays, num erous articles and several screenplays. B row n has com e under fire by heterosexu als fo r fig h tin g fo r lesbian rights w ithin NOW and under fire fro m fem inists fo r defending m en. O nce so destitute she lived in her car w ith her c a t she now raises the ire o f socialists fo r e xh ibiting a penchant fo r nice things (a m on g them a 27-ro om m ansion and ex pensive cars). And still Rita Mae Brown is unapologetic. Because o f her schedule w hile in Portland, B row n was unavailable to but did agree to a by-m ail interview. W hatever one th in ks o f her, obvious here are B row n’s intelli gence, qu ick w it and the fact that Rita Mae B row n cautiously straddles no one’s fence. not presume to judge a mem when I lack the essential knowledge of his task" (283); ‘We re living inside a question mark ” (284); “Monogamy might go against na ture, but it certainly made one 's social a n d emotional life infinitely easier. Easier on the purse strings too ” (285). A ll are representative o f me. Ju st the way m y m in d works. against in gross ways and in subtle ways but if I continue to th in k o f w om en as a separate sub-group, then I’m participating in that dis crim in a tio n . I'll fig h t fo r w om en as a group b u t I try not to th in k o f them , in m y personal life, as separate fro m men. I like people who are vital, thin kin g and good-hum ored. To date, I have not found those qualities to be gender-linked. Are you learning now more toward humanism than feminism? Have you, as have so many others, been Ccistigated as a manhater? I d o n ’t th in k fem inism and hum anism are two differe nt nouns. You can’t be a hum anist w ith o u t being a fe m in is t People who try to do so are, in fa c t trying to avoid identifying with fem ale lives. M en w ho are afraid o f independent wom en w ill try to call m e o r you m anhaters. I th in k the only w om en w ho hate m en are battered wives. you feel "tumed-on,” in the sense of “attacked,” by the women s movement? How difficult has it been to be openly lesbian and a public figure? Have you en countered “paparazzi" or hate mail? Do you think it ’s eerier now? The w om en’s m ovem ent went through a period when it attacked anybody with an I.Q. W hat m akes being openly lesbian d ifficu lt is th a t I’m reviewed, not m y work. N ot until I am Do H eterosexual relationships aren’t that m uch diffe re n t fro m hom osexual relationships ex cept fo r one m ig hty inequity; heterosexual relationships have the support o f our society. As to Nash and Geneva, fo r me, they were two people caught up in events (the Civil W ar] beyond th e ir control. They aren’t a perfect couple, they aren’t perfect individuals. They’re real peokple in a real crisis o r maybe a surreal crisis because it’s so terrible. As to Nash and Geneva being indicative o f m y view o f love, I d o n ’t th in k any characters I w rie are tem plates fo r m y view o f love. They are tru e to them selves, not to me. B ible readings were a form o f entertainm ent at the tim e (o f the C ivil War ]. I was trying to be accurate as well as use the Bible in a structural way. Also, I grew up on the Bible, King Jam es Version, and I can quote scriptures right easily enough. The quotes that follow seemed particularly strong in the book. Are they at all repre sentative of you? ‘What if God is a vege table?” (p. 269); “I have enjoyed isolated moments of great happiness (269); 7 can Just O ut. September, 1986 I see th irty sides to every story and hope I can reveal three o r four. N othing is sim ple. N ot even death is sim ple. People w ho see black and w hite are at the insect level o f intellectual developm ent; they can function but they can’t dance. How sensitive are you? Insecure? Rough, tough? How confident? Again, Americans especially seem to see the rich-and-famous as superior, untouchable, unwoundable. Is it true? What do you think that view says about our culture? Nash and Geneva seems that o f an alm ost- perfect heterosexual couple (a sensitive man, a stro ng w om an). Does it reflect at all your view o f heterosexuality? Your view o f love itself? The Bible has been a source of oppression and injustice as well as comfort. You used Bible readings as a device to advance your novel. Any particular reason why? People, especially Americans, tend to see things in terms of absolutes—black/white, true/untrue. Would you say you try to avoid that — seeing, instead, two sides to every story? As I d o n ’t understand the accusation I can’t refute i t It’s hard to be an elitist when you’ve been orphaned and raised d irt poor. Perhaps m y success is sand in the eyes o f those who haven’t been quite as successful. Beats the hell o u t o f me. In H igh Hearts, the relationship between If the N orth cared so m uch about slavery, why was it so eager to use the products created by slavery? A t no tim e did N ortherners cu t back on th e ir use o f tobacco, rice, cotton o r liquor. If they th o u g h t it was so terrible, why didn’t they b o yco tt S outhern products? Also, I don’t th in k any war at any tim e is ever fought for m o ral reasons. It’s fought over money, terri to ry and, in ancient tim es, conquering people to use as slaves. There is never a good reason fo r w ar b u t leaders dress it up as best they can. The W ar Between the States is no exception. cases Some have accused you of being elitist. Is it true? Just Out In the book you say Southerners see the Civil War simply as a ploy by the North to get Southern riches, rather than as a sincere attempt to free slaves. Is this true? g ro u n d gay m ovem ent since 1968 when I and three oth er people started S tudent H om o ph ile League at C olum bia University. The m ovem ent really to o k o ff after Stonewall. P olitical bonding creates m ore individual space. As m ore and m ore gay people realize w e've g o t to su p p o rt candidates, vote as a b lo ck and fig h t like hell on the jo b , life w ill be easier fo r everybody. It’s the p o o r sucker w ho th in ks s /h e is g o in g to be the exception to the rule th a t m akes life hard. C loset turn on open people and then get the ax them selves fro m th e very people whose asses they have been devoutly kissing. . . . the occasional hate letter is either from a fanatical religious nut or a gay fanatic who says I’m not gay enough. I’d love to introduce these two kinds of people to one another. They have a great deal in common. over 95. N o reason I should be spared its assaults. T hings are better now because that kind o f self-hate, and it was a com m unity fo rm o f self-hate, those attacks, were so de structive it had to stop. It was a little bit like the C om m ittee fo r Public Safety (the French Re vo lu tio n ’s Reign o f T error] w ithout the g u il lotine. My reaction was to keep w orking. I have never m uch cared what anyone thought o f me. W hy start now? Do you like women as a cleiss, or do you feel that you perhaps relate better to men these days? W om en as a class mean nothing to me. People aren’t grapes, you can’t weigh them in a bunch. I have to take every individual one by one. I know that w om en are discrim inated near the end o f m y m iddle age w ill this rectify itse lf because I w ill be past the age o f sexual c o n ta c t O ur society is very age-conscious, so I figure once I’m at m y m iddle-fifties the fact that I’m a lesbian will be irrelevant Odd, bu t I bet it’s true. As long as one is sexually desirable, being a lesbian upsets those people w ho want to feel they sh o u ld /co u ld /w o u ld go to bed w ith you. I th in k it’s pretty funny myself. As fo r paparazzi; yes, I encounter them . I tell m yself they have to earn a living, too. As for hate m ail, I get som e o f it but nothing like the o ld days. Now the occasional hate letter is either fro m a fanatical religious nut o r a gay fanatic w ho says I’m not gay enough. I’d love to introduce these tw o kinds o f people to one another. They have a great deal in com m on. It’s easier now because we’ve had an over 1 d o n ’t know if I’m sensitive. I pick up a lo t I usually know what people are feeling even if they d o n ’t tell me. It’s one o f the virtues o f being q u ie t perhaps, and I’m q u ie t You all see m e on pu blicity tours where I m ust ta lk / perform . O n m y ow n I’m not very talkative and I d o n ’t want to be the center o f attention. Feels to o m uch like work. As fo r being in secure, I’m n o t I d o n ’t understand the em o tion. I figure you’re all you’ve g o t Being in secure m ust be when people wait around for others to like them . Total waste o f tim e. I d o n ’t know if I’m rough but I can bench press 207 pounds and I th in k I can do m ore but m y w eight m achine doesn’t go any higher. Then again, if I get sick o r som ething I’ll be lucky to p u m p up 175 pounds. A m I tough? I d o n ’t know b u t I’m a re a list I d o n 't expect people to be better than they are and I know in a clinch it w ill be m yself that protects m y own back not som e other person. A m I confident? Yes. If you d o n ’t believe in yourself you aren’t going to do Ja ck S hit in this w orld. I d o n 't know if the rich and fam ous are superior, un tou ch able and unw oundable. Probably n o t W hat I do know is that m ost o f the people I know in p u b lish in g and film w hom you m ig h t th in k o f as rich and fam ous w ork hard. I’ve never m et a successful person who d id n ’t w ork hard. Jefferson said, “T he harder I w ork the lucker I g e t” H olds as true now as it did in the E ig h teenth Century. W ith few exceptions (disease, a ccid e n t violent intrusion into one’s life) m ost people can change th e ir lives in a positive way. M y observation is that m any people are w aiting fo r som eone to do it fo r them instead o f d o in g it them selves. I d o n ’t know w hat the idea says about our cu ltu re — about rich and fam ous people — and I d o u b t th a t any other cu ltu re is m uch d iffe re n t We seem to w ant to believe that som eone som ew here o u t there has an easier life th a n we do. Is there anything you would say to the Just Out readers? Laugh: It absolutely infuriates your enem ies and it entertains your friends. 11